I'm shocked

Comments

11 comments posted
I agree

Yep, totally agree with you.

Jos

Posted by Jos De Graeve (not verified) on Wed, 2009-09-16 12:12
As a self proclaimed freedom

As a self proclaimed freedom fighter, you want to take away the *constitutional* right of freedom of education of others?
http://www.arbitrage.be/nl/basisteksten/basisteksten_grondwet.html (Artikel 24 - § 1)

Posted by Luc (not verified) on Tue, 2009-09-15 08:59
No

No, just avoid that exercising this right violates the right of others. 

Posted by gvansanden on Tue, 2009-09-15 14:28
I agree partly. I believe

I agree partly. I believe that schools should be free to impose a dress code if it's necessary. It's arbitrary, and I don't like it, but I can see reasons for it. If it comes to a point where kids are seen as harlots and are ostracized because they don't cover their hair, we failed to protect the freedom of those kids too. The point is, in an ideal world everyone should not be afraid and wear whatever the hell they want - not only legally, but in practice too. However this isn't an ideal world, and the reality on the ground means that the school or the state can't realistically protect minorities that are or dress differently (minorities = muslim/sikh/orthodox jewish/... in a predominant western school, but also western in a school with a large share of muslims f.e.). I guess having a school ban is a bit the way out; but i suspect educating bigots, especially religious bigots, is not very succesful.

That being said, I think it should be up to the management of the school, and not the state. I'm very much worried about the state becoming the arbiter of good taste, i.e. the fashion police. Taste should be completely abstracted out of the government.

Posted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 2009-09-14 21:04
No offense, but that doesn't

No offense, but that doesn't solve everything. A headscarf ban is only symbolic of the deeper problems within secular public institutions. I've been to publicly funded schooling in two different western countries, and a mix of public, public catholic, and private Christian schools.

I have never felt welcome in a public institution. Some students were welcoming, some teachers were, but I lost marks on assignments and I fell out of the "in" crowd because of my faith. Now that I am in university, I have made the same choice that my parents made for me in elementary school and that I made after enduring 3 1/2 years of public education. I choose to work harder, to make more sacrifices, and pay more money so that I can have education I can be proud of. Though at a public institution I am free to wear a headscarf crucifix or anything I would like, I am taught by people who do not know what I believe to be the truth and I am consistently taught beliefs that either directly or implicitly attempt to subvert my thinking to a more "secular" point of view. At the aforementioned institutions, I have been taught that all religions are equal paths to salvation, that Genesis and most of the Bible is myth, sex is good outside of marriage, drugs are okay as long as it's not the hardcore stuff, everyone get's drunk and does stupid stuff so just go along with it, abortion is a woman's right and definitely not murder, we came from monkeys, marriage includes men with men and women with women... this runs deeper than clothing choice, and it is something you are intdoctrinated into from both your teachers and peers. And if you don't fit, well, too bad. You're just intolerant, homophobic, sexually-repressed, brain-washed because you don't believe in the pluralistic and open gospel of freedom.

You see, this is the deeper mentality and idea behind banning head-scarves and crucifixes... religion is dirty. Oh, superficial religion is nice, even healthy. But if you truly believe your faith alone to be true... It's divisive, corrupting and cruel. It's too exclusive, the source of too many arguments and brings nothing positive to the table. Much better to keep it from coming to the table at all. You say put up or shut up yet you also want to end funding to a system that teaches things that you don't like (in this case, the catholic system). You bemoan the difficulty of escaping the grips of the Catholic church. Have you considered that many people of faith think the same thing about "secular" (aka atheist) culture?

Our most basic, core belief is that Jesus is God and functions as the only way to salvation - it is what Christianity was founded around and what diffrentiates us from the Jewish and Muslim faiths. Likewise, those faiths have core beliefs that are fundamentally at odds with our "much proclaimed Western Freedom". Those beliefs don't resonate strongly with a secular culture, and I suspect, with a self declared atheist. So Western Freedom is content to let us hold those beliefs in private, but is tremendously opposed to them entering the public sphere. Western nations only differ on where to draw the line; your system perhaps thinks clothes belong to the public sphere, while others think only government and education and truth. The freedoms which are "much proclaimed" were originally designed to protect religion from the state... but now they are being used to keep religion out of the public square. Is it any wonder that we want to leave a system where we are forced to hide our faith as a dirty little secret?

Posted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 2009-09-14 19:44
Irrespective of whether I'm

Irrespective of whether I'm religious or not, I wouldn't want religion to invade the public sphere. For the simple reason that your interpretation of religion might be very different than mine. So let's abstract it out completely, and let the public sphere be the common ground shared between religious (any kind) and non-religious people. If you and your church want to create a parallel society layered on top of the state, with morals and rules founded in your religion, that's OK. However, don't impose it on people outside of your church.

Posted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 2009-09-14 21:24
So then, on what "religion"

So then, on what "religion" is our government based? Our government chooses to provide certain services, to behave in a certain matter on the global stage, and to make certain laws and carry out certain punishments. That requires a guiding set of moral principles, which most people get from religion. I see what you are saying, but no matter what you do, government will be governing from a set of moral principles and acting as if a certain set of beliefs are true (even if individual government members believe differently, Western states tend to function as if God didn't exist... some more than others). You may like this current system because it may fit well with your personal beliefs (whatever they happen to be, religious or nonreligious) but others will disagree precisely because the state's interpretation of moral principles and guiding beliefs are very different from them. You will never make everyone happy, so saying 'well, some people would disagree' is not really a good defense of the current system because the current system is not 'common ground' and will never totally be unless our government steps back from every controversial issue.

Also, there is a difference between religious involvement in government and government establishing a mandatory state church that everyone must attend. I'm not proposing that my church alone be given the "keys to the kingdom" as it were. In fact, I didn't even necessarily argue against withdrawing funding from public religious institutions. I wanted to point out that headscarves and crucifixes are simply superficial indicators of a deeper issue - our secular society doesn't want anything to do with religion in public, and doesn't understand that religion is incredibly public and you can't wish away different interpretations and disagreements by hiding them under a rock and hoping they go away. If our society truly wants to embrace people from all walks of life and give them freedom, it must encourage religion (spanning the range of faiths, not just my church or Christianity) to be a part of the public sphere, to retain its uniqueness but to dialog and bring to the table its important perspectives on the beliefs and principles that shape our Western nations.

Posted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 2009-09-15 15:58
Sounds incredibly wrong

Sounds like a call for some civil disobedience by encouraging people to wear headscarves regardless of religion, in opposition to the law.

Posted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 2009-09-14 19:00
I agree

I agree with you.

Posted by matthew (not verified) on Mon, 2009-09-14 16:56
I agree with you,

I agree with you, definitely. The debate whether 'speciaal onderwijs' -- special education, mostly this means schools with a religious identity -- should be allowed recently also started again here in the Netherlands, but unfortunately it will be very hard to get rid of those schools because this 'right' has been put in our constitution.
Blocking only one religious symbol is indeed discriminatory, but something that some people here favour as well (like the man that said that Flanders could be added to the Netherlands, because that would give _us_ the city of Antwerp with its large harbour).

Education on a school which identifies itself mainly with a certain religion is very bad in my eyes because you it could harm the world view of children and their capacity of scientific thinking. Teaching creationisms like Intelligent Design or an unadapted version of Genesis would teach people to ignore certain facts and keep on to what they're told to believe, to doublethink, to use a Newspeak word.

Posted by Sense Hofstede (not verified) on Mon, 2009-09-14 16:47
False dilemma

I concur in part but dissent in a larger part.

First, you’re presenting a false dilemma. A school system without religious education but allowing religious symbols on the one hand and the proclamation of Catholicism as the state’s only allowed religion on the other, are by no means the only two options.

I agree that a pluralistic society should allow religious symbols in the public sphere. Clothes are a form of expression, and there should be freedom of expression.

But this freedom does not necessarily apply in all circumstances.

For example, an employer may ask its employees not to wear clothes with political of religious symbols, especially if those employees come in contact with the public, representing their company.

Similarly, I believe that a school may deny its pupils expressions which would be allowed in the streets after school hours. A school may disallow religious symbols. This is what a lot of schools decided years ago, and the Community Education Board (Raad van het Gemeenschapsonderwijs GO!) has decided for all its member schools now. It’s the situation as it has been in France for many years now.

I actually agree with you that religion should not be thought at school, and should be optional. Legislation not to finance free (mainly Catholic) schools has been proposed in the past, but was fiercly opposed (Schoolstrijd). Too bad. (Although, I hate to admit that the quality of primary and secondary education has remained high during the 1970s, thanks to the conservative attitude of Catholic schools. Credit where credit is due.)

Posted by Adhemar (not verified) on Mon, 2009-09-14 15:17